Monday, March 17, 2014
Hey Spencer,
My best to you and yours. It seems every time we talk, you say something I keep thinking about for some time after. A letter is my way of thinking it through. The trinity is not something I usually talk about, as I consider it a dogma. (My personal understanding of a dogma is any teaching which does not find direct support in the Bible. With such teachings, I often have strong beliefs or feelings about them, but try not to judge beyond what the Bible teaches. What the Bible clearly teaches is my only concern: justbibletruth.com. As Joe Friday used to say: “Just the facts Mam.” It is always a waste of time to worry about, and certainly to argue about, what the Bible does not say.)
What I try to share with people is what the scriptures say, along with the recommendation they study their own Bible for verification in context. You see Spencer, along with the spiritual or Christian maturity (Heb_5:11-14 ; Eph_4:13-15 ; Gal_5:3-5) you and I have been discussing, comes responsibility. Every human is responsible to recognize God's existence: (Hebrews 3:4) 4 Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that constructed all things is God. After we recognize God, we should realize our need to learn about him, and to share our hope with others. (1 Pet 3:15) It is as we begin to teach others, we take responsibility to ourselves for what we assert God has said: (Romans 1:18-22) 18 For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, 19 because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. 20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable; 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. 22 Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish... If we teach something as Bible truth that is not in the Bible, it is (or may be) a lie. Lies suppress the truth. It's okay not to know what the Bible says about some matter. Asserting the Bible says something it does not say is NOT okay. (Mat_5:37 ; Jas_5:12)
Our assertions of what the Bible says, then, can be our undoing. We must be very cautious: (1 Corinthians 4:6) . . .in our case YOU may learn the [rule]: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,”. . . If we claim the Bible says something it does not say, we put ourselves in danger of adverse judgment. [(Galatians_1:8-9) 8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said above, I also now say again, Whoever it is that is declaring to YOU as good news something beyond what YOU accepted, let him be accursed.] The Bible is our one and only source of the good news as “declared” to Jesus's early followers.
Since the trinity did come up in both our recent conversations, breaking my own rule, I feel the need to caution you about a couple of things. You see Spencer, I believe the Bible is the record of one long unfolding drama providing deliverance from the sin and death our first parents sold us into. I also believe the Bible teaches it is our generation that will see that deliverance. (Those already dead will also have opportunity to be part of it, through the resurrection of course.) If my understanding is right about where we are in the revelation of God's timetable, all we need do is reach out and take life. [(Job_33:24-30) In mercy the angel will say, "Release them! They are not to go down to the world of the dead. Here is the ransom to set them free." (25) Their bodies will grow young and strong again...(27) Each one will say in public, "I have sinned. I have not done right, but God spared me. (28) He kept me from going to the world of the dead, and I am still alive."] (John_11:26) If I am wrong about the timing, all that is lost is a little Bible study effort. What could go wrong? 
First thing then, the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible and there is no record of it being considered until after 300 AD. By that time, the apostasy Jesus warned about was well under way. (2_Thes_2:3 ; 2_John_1:7 ; Mat_24:24 ; Mat_13:25 ; 2_Tim 4:3) If you are not familiar with that apostasy, and what it is, it would seem a warning about [and for] those you have studied the bible with. The Bible prominently teaches: [(2 Thessalonians_2:3-8) 3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it [the end of this old system, and the earthly rule of Christ's kingdom] will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things? 6 And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence.] According to that scripture, life under the kingdom of Christ can not come until the "Man Of Lawlessness" is exposed, and brought to nothing. As we speak what Jesus taught in the Bible, we manifest “the spirit of his mouth,” thereby exposing the man of lawlessness. It is important!!! It is the reaction of people, as they are witness to the man of lawlessness being revealed, which displays whether they love God. [(John 12:48) . . .The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day; (Romans_2:15-16) 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.] We are all judging ourselves by our reaction to the teachings of God's son.
The second fault I find with the trinity is: I believe it keeps people from understanding something wonderful about the relationship between the Father and the Son. When satan rebelled, and Adam and Eve followed, satan asserted all God's creation was bad and would put selfish interest above everything. [(Job_1:11) 11 But, for a change, thrust out your hand, please, and touch everything he has [and see] whether he will not curse you to your very face.”] All our Father's faithful sons and daughters were watching that hateful challenge. God had a firstborn son, (Col 1:13-15) however, whom He knew well enough to know that one would never be unfaithful; no matter what the test. The pre-human Jesus volunteered to answer satan's challenge. [(Psalm 40:6-8) 6 Sacrifice and offering you did not delight in; These ears of mine you opened up. Burnt offering and sin offering you did not ask for. 7 In view of that, I said: “Here I have come, In the roll of the book it being written about me. 8 To do your will, O my God, I have delighted, And your law is within my inward parts.] As we can know from our present day view on God's timeline, Jesus was tested by a grinding and painful death, and humiliated as a wrongdoer during his abuse. Through it all, he submitted himself to his Fathers will. God did not have control over Jesus's actions, because Jesus was and is Jehovah God's son, with his own free will and choice. Jesus freely chose his Father's will, however, even above his own life. [(Philippians 2:5-11) 5 Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.] Jesus submitted to a most horrible death in complete faith his Father would raise him up from the dead, which we also can now know did indeed happen. What love on the part of both of those individuals. Those are things which we know have already happened. There is still more to come, which we must have faith in. The Bible tells us: (1 Corinthians 15:20-28) 20 However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [in death]. 21 For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own rank: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
Note the Bible says after even death is done away with, Christ will subject himself to his Father. Christ died a sacrificial death to buy back the hope of life for all who will accept it. (1_Pet_1:18-19) His sacrifice in our behalf is history. His soon to come submissive act will restore peace to the universe, forever proving satan's challenge a lie. Christ is no longer dependent upon his Father for his life. [(John 5:26) 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.] If there were any improvement to be made in Jehovah's rule, Christ Jesus would not submit himself to it. Under God's own law, at the mouth of two witnesses a thing is established. [(John 8:17, 18) 17 Also, in YOUR own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’ 18 I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.” (John_5:36-37) 36 But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father dispatched me. 37 Also, the Father who sent me has himself borne witness about me. . .] Jehovah said all his works were perfect. (Gen 1:31) By his final and eternal submission to his Father, Jesus provides the second witness to God's perfect rulership. The sad consequences which have consumed mankind [starting from their disobedience in the garden] provides an additional witness all of us should recognize. Everyone must become wise enough to understand: There will never again be a reason to tolerate disobedience to our loving Father. Also, like Jesus, those who are judged upright by Jehovah never would disobey. Wouldn't that be a wonderful thing to know about yourself? That knowledge will bring peace to, and for, everyone!
That highlights one additional principle these scriptures teach us: Our Father can get to know his creatures well enough to know they will never prove unfaithful. I believe that is what happened to Abraham when he was declared God's friend. (James_2:23) The pre-human Christ was known well enough by his Father to be chosen and sent to break up the works of the devil, (1 John 3:8b) because Jehovah knows his firstborn son would never prove unfaithful. [(Proverbs 8:22-31) 22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.] Even though Christ apparently was fearful he might fail the grueling and most important test which rested upon him, (Mat_26:38-39 ; Mark_14:36 ; Heb 10:9) his Father knew he never would. It is nearly too wonderful to comprehend. As I reflect on the beauty of that knowledge, I don't even want to think about trinity. I know my Father Jehovah, and I know my lord and savior Jesus Christ. (Pro_30:4 ; John_17:3) I know the holy spirit they send to help those who will accept it. (John_14:25-26 ; John_5:26 ; Mark_5:30) We are all standing before the judgment seat of Christ on the basis of our own personal faith. If you want to have a trinity as part of your faith, or to tell others it is a Bible teaching, it is certainly your choice to make. For my part, if it ain't mentioned in the Bible, don't tell it to me! [justbibletruth.com] The definition I was given of the trinity is that it is some kind of “co-equal, co-powerful, co-eternal, godhead – a divine mystery.” From what I know about Christ and his Father, that hurts to try and think about. Some might assert there was a time when mankind didn't have enough Bible understanding about the relationship between Jehovah and Jesus to speak of it, beyond calling it a mystery. If so, I don't believe that is the case in our day. (Pr 4:18) I won't argue about the trinity, I just won't express faith in it, nor will I say it is so. There is far too much to learn and know that is very clearly stated in the Bible. I pray and seek to rid myself of all the dogma I have infected myself with by my exposure to different religious sects over the years. All those religions, together, comprise the "Man Of Lawlessness" Jesus warned about! Knowledge of that warning grants hearers the ability to sort of look down and see, as these religionist groups individually entice their “sheep” into hating others, based on their respective sect's religious doctrine or dogma. They each say they love others, of course! When you can convince a group they are God's chosen, because of some faith, or knowledge, or some other thing they have which others do not possess, how can they not judge themselves superior? All the time religionists can keep people worrying about group membership, and keep them busy arguing and judging others based on their dogma, they also keep them turned away from the Bible and toward their own group's teachings. [(Matthew 23:15) 15 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen'na twice as much so as yourselves. (Mark_12:24) 24 Jesus said to them: “Is not this why YOU are mistaken, YOUR not knowing either the Scriptures or the power of God? (1_Pet_1:18-21) 18 For YOU know that it was not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, that YOU were delivered from YOUR fruitless form of conduct received by tradition from YOUR forefathers. 19 But it was with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ's. 20 True, he was foreknown before the founding of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of YOU 21 who through him are believers in God, the one who raised him up from the dead and gave him glory; so that YOUR faith and hope might be in God.] What all these different sects have, Spencer, is religion. Religionists argue about grammar, the form of the words used, and which translation is more accurate. They get derailed questioning whether to use of God's personal name, even though it is clearly known to have been used over 6000 times in the penning of the original Hebrew scriptures. They debate whether Christ was hung on a stake or a cross. They argue about this little thing, and then that other little dogma; all the while failing to learn the simple and beautiful teachings of the Christ. Jesus did not teach us to be that way! [(Mark_9:38-40) 38 John said to him: “Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.” 39 But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, for there is no one that will do a powerful work on the basis of my name that will quickly be able to revile me; 40 for he that is not against us is for us.] I believe we have all been infected with teachings which go beyond the Bible, by the various religious sects we have been exposed to: We have all been influenced by the “man of lawlessness.” The only thing any of us can do is study the Bible, striving to build [or rebuild] our faith based on what the Bible clearly does teach. Knowing you are well aware what a scoundrel I was in our youth, I love being able to express the hope our Father might allow even someone like me some small part in exposing the man of lawlessness! What wonderful news God's word provides for all the righteous persons of the earth. [(Matthew 24:14) 14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.] Christ's kingdom rules and he is sorting the peoples of the earth: (Matthew 25:31-33) 31 “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. Our faithful reaction to the words Jesus spoke provide our identifying mark for life: (Ezekiel 9:4-6) 4 And Jehovah went on to say to him: “Pass through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and you must put a mark on the foreheads of the men that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the midst of it.” 5 And to these [others] he said in my ears: “Pass through the city after him and strike. Let not your eye feel sorry, and do not feel any compassion. 6 Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women YOU should kill off—to a ruination. But to any man upon whom there is the mark do not go near, and from my sanctuary YOU should start." (John 12:47-49) 47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day; 49 because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak.
[You didn't seem to judge me wicked when I said I didn't believe in the trinity, Spencer. You should be aware, that probably means you are not a true trinitarian. They express the belief: All who don't place faith in their trinity definition as expressed above, are unworthy of life. A trinitarian preacher once judged to others I was plagued with a demon of confusion because I wouldn't assert blind faith in his dogma of the trinity. I believe there is some measure of faith required for us to believe there is a good Creator, (Heb 11:6) and we need faith the Bible is his form of communication with us. (1_Thes_2:13) (I also believe a sincere examination of the Bible will prove it could not have been dreamt up by men.) Beyond faith in God and the Bible, little additional faith is required! Everything we need to know is then clearly spelled out in God's word.]
As to the length of time I spend on letters like this, it does take some. I think I had about three hours in this one (much of that being Bible study time, spent looking up scriptures) when I decided the material was important enough to put up on the website. After that, I stopped counting. There are several reasons I do it: 1. I have faith your worth it. 2. It is a form of Bible study for me, and helps me probably more than you. 3. You were always a likeable guy; I never knew you to pick on anyone emotionally or otherwise. I never really knew anyone who disliked you. That's rare! I'm sure that was and is part of the basis of our friendship. Based on all that, I know you still visit with lots of people. If I am able to share a scripture that will influence you, you can help someone else... It is the same with the scriptures you share with me. 4. Writing letters is my method for brushing out some little cocklebur in my own faith. 4b. The substance of letters like this often wind up as pages on my website. The site averaged 500 hits / day from 98 countries last year (2013). The heaviest traffic over the last two months came from Ukraine, in the midst of all their turmoil. It's not the first time that has happened. Sometimes, my letters clarify my faith by helping me realize I don't find enough scriptural support to assert what the Bible says about some matter, one way or the other. If the scriptures don't mention something, what could I possibly have to say about it? And yet I did, didn't I???
God's will be done! Ain't life grand,
Joe
Use browser "Back Arrow" or Alt+Left_Arrow keys to previous page. | Home Page